tesla Why are Tesla replacement batteries so expensive?
One of the main concerns I have when looking at whether I should buy an electric car is the range degradation. I drive a hell of a lot in my prius and I put about 190,000 miles on it in the last 6 years. But when I’m looking at the price of a replacement tesla battery, considering I would want to buy a used Tesla, I’m looking at prices from $14-$20,000, whereas extrapolating the math from the 18650 cells I’m buying to build an EBike battery, the cells themselves for a Tesla battery really shouldn’t be more than 5- $6000. (I know Tesla has moved away from 18650 but I think my point of lithium ion cells cost is valid)
Is this 8,000 to $15,000 discrepancy just a function of getting work done by a dealership? In the same way I can replace my own catalytic converter for a few hundred bucks but the shop will charge me two grand? It just really seems like the absolute biggest factor in this consideration; I could buy multiple used Priuses for the same cost if a battery replacement costs me $20,000, but if it costs me $6,000 the math checks out, and I’m going electric ! Obviously the next biggest part of this is I don’t think you can even get a non Tesla shop to install a battery as if any modifications are discovered by Tesla, they’ll disable fast charging! Which completely kills my ability to make the trips I usually make.
Any insight or links to a previous thread is much appreciated!
Well, data shows (other than certain problematic packs) 300k on a pack before degradation (not failure, lower range/efficiency) is a reasonable expectation.
There's several sites that collect telemetry from owners that use their apps. Large population of cars various models. Slice and dice the data anyway you want.
New m3p owner here, can you link one such site please? I’m a data nerd so I’d love to take a look!
Or TeslaFi.
There is a graph in the Tesla impact reports, too, on degradation. 200k only. But it won't fall off a cliff.
Looks like this
https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2021/08/Screen-Shot-2021-08-12-at-5.57.42-AM.jpg?resize=1024,435
Here's the one I know about.
https://teslalogger.de/degradation.php
Stats App is one example
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Not necessarily, everything except the Texas standard range model y’s have these 18650 packs or the newer 2170 packs. The packs are divided into modules still in the model 3 I believe.I don’t think it’s don’t this way but I believe you could replace an individual module.
Here is an eBay listing for some of the modules.
You technically can replace individual modules, but unfortunately that is not effective. Something to do with the pack voltage being different, and not balanced properly severely limits that life. It's one of the reasons they are doing away with modules on the new structural packs (or so I've read).
You either replace the pack and need to buy a pack, not individual batteries, or it's an insane amount of work, tools and knowledge to take it apart and replace all or some batteries in the pack and get it back to how it was working before. It can be done, but not worth it.
because its was designed to be simple to produce, not to repair.
18650 are designed to be cheaper and above all more reliable.
Trade-off for serviceability were not worth it.
Is there a way to read out the battery health in car ? Interested in a model 3 and considering a 3 LR (09/20 one) with 100k km on it (62k miles). That many miles in 2.5 years screams Autobahn and 90% CCS for me (in Austria only businessmen drive that much , so I assume it's a 30month lease return ) But it has a matte grey color and a hook for smaller trailers , which would be very nice. And it's 37k€ (which is rather cheap compared to what others ask. Then again since the price drop the new SR+ with bit less range is around 45k after incentives iirc or 53k for the LR)
There is but it takes a while. Google "service mode"
Fast charging isn't really hurting a model 3. I wouldn't worry to much about that.
whereas extrapolating the math from the 18650 cells I’m buying to build an EBike battery,
Are you talking about raw cells here? The individual cells are only part of the cost.
You also have all of the components and fabrication to build them into a module with BMS, epoxy, cooling, terminal connections, etc that just about double the cost. Then add shipping and labor for installing the new battery plus shipping and disposal costs of the old battery.
$14-20k is probably a fairly good ball park for replacement costs depending on pack size and installation requirements.
Plus, most ebike batteries are rated for way fewer cycles, and specced more weakly as far as use conditions and safety.
(a chunk of it will be labor though)
You can buy the same cells that go in the car.
Yeah that’s what I’m saying they’re the same cells… bms and epoxy?? I’ll take you on labor or assembly but seriously? You’re putting 500 lithium ion cells in a box and the other parts are the most expensive? 100% hear on the internal parts of the car or the development of the BMS, but no way anything other than labor or lithium actually costs much
Bms, epoxy, much more copper to handle higher charging speeds, cooling/heating that acts evenly across the pack, quite a lot of steel to make the pack structurally sound in a violent crash, specialized skills and tools to build all this.
And ofc enough money to cover rnd, and profit.
Also, since most EVs will never have the battery replaced it's a small scale operation doing almost custom stuff. Especially for cars where the model has been changed so the current packs can't just be dropped in.
Why are Tesla replacement batteries so expensive?
more importantly.. what is the likelihood that you'll replace it.. EVER?
what is the Federal warranty on all EV batteries?
what is the total number of Teslas that have ever gotten a new battery due to regular use vs the total number sold? (starting with the 2008 Roadster)
you will find the occasional story.. but you'll probably also find that the car was modded..
This Tesla Model X Has Driven Over 400,000 Miles. Here Are All The Parts That Had To Be Replaced
https://jalopnik.com/this-tesla-model-x-has-driven-over-400-000-miles-here-1841761190
I drive a hell of a lot in my prius and I put about 190,000 miles on it in the last 6 years
how is the battery in your Prius? what about all the PHEV batteries that are on the roads today? are those being replaced on a massive scale?
generally speaking, you want to minimize costs to run a fleet....
$20,000 "mandatory" per .. would be kind of a bad thing to get into.... ? especially since rentals are probably driven harder than a personal vehicle.
Hertz took delivery of half its massive Tesla order of 100,000 electric carshttps://electrek.co/2023/02/08/hertz-half-massive-tesla-order-100000-electric-cars/
I don't think amazon would be that into these if the fleet needed a big pile of BIG TRUCK batteries every 5 years.
Amazon is purchasing 100,000 Rivian electric vans, the largest order of EV delivery vehicles ever
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/19/amazon-is-purchasing-100000-rivian-electric-vans.html
What is the federal warranty on all EV batteries?
100k miles is the warranty.
Warranty on gas engines is 60k miles. Do you expect gas cars to crap out at 70k?
They set the warranty to a point where they're sure they won't ever replace anything other than bad quality cells or manufacturing errors. It should not be possible to get a warranty replacement on normal wear, as you'll never manage to wear it down that much, even if you exclusively fast charge to hi SoC every time.
100k miles is the warranty.
Warranty on gas engines is 60k miles. Do you expect gas cars to crap out at 70k?
They set the warranty to a point where they're sure they won't ever replace anything other than bad quality cells or manufacturing errors. It should not be possible to get a warranty replacement on normal wear, as you'll never manage to wear it down that much, even if you exclusively fast charge to hi SoC every time.
100k miles is the warranty.
Warranty on gas engines is 60k miles. Do you expect gas cars to crap out at 70k?
They set the warranty to a point where they're sure they won't ever replace anything other than bad quality cells or manufacturing errors. It should not be possible to get a warranty replacement on normal wear, as you'll never manage to wear it down that much, even if you exclusively fast charge to hi SoC every time.
This post smells suspiciously like intentional bad faith arguments.
Lol sorry, but based on everyone even linking the stats there’s just not much data above 200k! Yeesh just tryna ask a question lol
They data is proportional to the number of cars that are driven past 200k on average. It’s just not that common; ICE or otherwise. It’s still a large enough data set to extrapolate a loose average. It’s just not as through as the MUCH MORE COMMON data set of people that drive 50k-100k miles. Not that hard to wrap the ol brain around.
More people = more data Less people = less data
There is clearly enough data available to make a conclusion about it.
One of the main concerns I have when looking at whether I should buy an electric car is the range degradation.
Is this because you are scared of the idea of range degradation or because there is evidence of range degradation being a problem? Because there is very little evidence of it being a problem. Other than some early issues with specific models (over charging or lack of thermal regulation) degradation hasn't been a concern. Its expected that batteries will now outlast the rest of the drive train.
Its so not a problem that used EVs with used batteries are selling for more than their original selling price.
elieve it’s not such a common discussion purely due to the reason that the first Model S units came out of warranty not but a few years ago, and all I see is horror stories of somebody buying a used 2015 car for $30k, driving it for 20k miles, and then Tesla tells them “replace the battery for $18,000 or we disable fast charging”
There are tons of data on Tesla's battery degradation. Your post seems to show you didn't look for them or even heard of them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/kgfjr5/oc_teslas_show_relatively_little_battery/
https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/
elieve it’s not such a common discussion purely due to the reason that the first Model S units came out of warranty not but a few years ago, and all I see is horror stories of somebody buying a used 2015 car for $30k, driving it for 20k miles, and then Tesla tells them “replace the battery for $18,000 or we disable fast charging”
There are tons of data on Tesla's battery degradation. Your post seems to show you didn't look for them or even heard of them.
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/kgfjr5/oc_teslas_show_relatively_little_battery/
https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/
"Talking causally" is basically bullshitting.
You definitely hear a lot about very few cases of bad batteries. Especially older model S didn't have the quality control we have today. Or the battery management.
That said, my dad has done well over 200k km in his 2016 model S with about 7% range loss and no issues or repairs required so far.
Also, you should also think about things in not in terms of the cost, but in terms of what a supplier can sell them for. Tesla says they are battery constrained. So, presumably, if they sell you a battery pack, that's one less car they can sell. So why would they sell it to you at cost? That's why your math will never work out. This is in addition to the other points that everyone else has pointed out.
They are no longer battery constrained.
But still doing packs is a distraction. They do it for a price.
This may change later but will never be a volume business because batteries last so long. It's only for faulty packs.
What's your duty cycle between charges.
Buy a 2022 or newer Lfp model 3. That will last over 500k miles unless you abuse it.
Big mileage cars bevs make even more sense.
Modern high nickel Tesla batteries will last about 300k miles. You've got your money's worth by then.
Any link to sources on that?
google the high mileage model s over 1m miles and look at his battery replacement schedule, and thats with supercharging
then you can google the life cycle vs depth of discharge between standard nickel batteries and lfp batteries.
in reality, those lfp batteries probably last over 750k miles within 10 years based on data we have if you keep non dc fast charging between 20-80 percent. of course we don't have perfect data because they aren't that old yet. but all testing shows lfp batteries are like 4x the life cycles of nickel.
battery replacement tech not needed as cars are worthless by then and less than 5% of cars will ever need it.
LFP packs last more than NMC or NCA. Any LFP crapping out at 150K miles means it’s such a horrible product.
I'm not sure range degradation is the issue people worry it is. My 14 year old Tesla only has about 10% range loss. I think Tesla's thermal and charge management systems are even better now.
Exactly this - and there are many examples of super high mile Tesla vehicles out there. There is a guy who put much more than 1 million KM on his Model S
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-1-million-miles-video/
You should have pointed out that he replaced his battery couple of time. But beside the bad one that he only got like a 100k out of, the least mileage battery pack of his was about 200k.
Agreed. Sorry didn't mean to mislead. The last version of the battery is good for more than 500k. That's pretty amazing if you ask me.
That’s awesome! Can I ask total mileage on that battery, and roughly percent fast charge??
It's my weekend fun car so it only has about 25,000 miles on it. It normally gets charged to 80-85% and it doesn't Supercharge so it has all been level two, usually at 40, 48, or 70 amps. It has seen 0% and 100% state of charge on a number of occasions and has variously been garaged in southern California, Boston, and Madison Wisconsin over the years, with the climates that you would expect at those locations.
My 14 year old Tesla only has about 10% range loss
This is fantastic. What are your charging practices, like slow charge vs Supercharger, % charge every day, temperate climate vs cold winters/hot summers? If you don't mind.
At what point do you expect them to fail? There are manufacturer warranties and Tesloop (which runs tesla taxis between LA and Vegas) has several cars with hundreds of thousands of miles on them.
what do you estimate to be the likelihood of a battery degrading enough to warrant a replacement after 200k miles?
I have no clue, but from Tesla warranties and plenty of anecdotal reports (I know…) I really don’t see many getting over 200k on the first battery??
“Got 250k on my Tesla, second battery, OF COURSE” I see literally everywhere haha
so you’re gonna base your purchase decision on anecdata with a severe selection bias?
look at how your prius battery held up, then make that 50% less bad to account for much more advanced technology used in modern bevs and you’ll be in a good ballpark
but from Tesla warranties and plenty of anecdotal reports (I know…) I really don’t see many getting over 200k on the first battery?
Theres your answer. Dont buy a Tesla then. Wait until a decade or so until the price falls within your comfort zone and then you can reevaluate this question again.
Why are you automatically assuming a battery pack will need replacement?
Sounds like FUD future tripping?
Can we stop calling normal concerns people who aren’t well acquainted with the technology FUD? The definition implies malice when it’s likely just ignorance.
They have not built the new batteries to be easily repacked. I think most haven’t.
As far as range degradation you have to keep in mind that while it will happen the battery management in EVs especially teslas is significantly better than an electric bike. The batteries are actively heated, cooled, and balanced to provide the best health and life for the pack.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but when you pay for the replacement battery you have to give up your old one right? Because a lot of ppl say the price to replace is fair but that’s only true if you keep the old battery. Shoot I wouldn’t mind paying for a new battery if it fails on the condition I can keep the old one with no extra charge or “CORE fee”. I can use it for a home battery bank at that point.
Your math is simply wrong...
This seems like a hypothetical discussion… OP, do you realize that the battery pack is the most expensive component of an EV? This is the case for any manufacturer. So , the actual question is “Why are battery packs so expensive, no matter who the car OEM is?”
The answer is: Because they are expensive to make.
Tesla happens to have it’s costs under better control than any other EV maker so you can expect another Oem to cost even more than Tesla, if you had to replace a pack, generally. This assumes it’s not a cheapo older Nissan leaf pack where The range, brand new, is a hundred miles or so…😅
Now, the real topic behind your first question was revealed: how long will Tesla battery packs last? That depends on how you use them but , unless you supercharge every day (like drive Uber and go so many miles daily that you have to, you don’t have to worry about it). If there were a ‘Problem” with their packs, you could easily find info on it by searching online… after all, any, and every issue whether real or imagined with teslas get THE MOST news attention. Isn’t that true? So, there’s no “conspiracy” hiding the “truth”.
In Canada Hyundai is asking 44K$ for the 64KWH pack of the Kona EV.
The price of the pack is not just the cell inside it. You have the enclosure, the cooling system, the BMS and all the logistic involved in bringing the pack to the service center. I don't think their is a large markup on the Tesla battery packs. On the other hand, Hyundai is charging the same price as the full car for their pack, it doesn't feel right.
Jesus, it looks like Tesla is the ultimate wealth test. "Wanna drive our car for years and years to come? Prove it, goddamn it."
We're just in baby boom of EV, so battery needs to take a time for cheaper. It's same thing how Toyota making their NiMH battery affordable, so that's why your old Prius battery cheap now. You think that the battery in Prius was affordable when it first released ? Absolutely not.
The way current batteries are I wouldn't worry about this.
For one you have an 8 year warranty. Since the battery is, by FAR, the most expensive part in the car the real, expected lifetime is way beyond 8 years. If 8 years were the average lifetime all car companies would be heading direct for bankruptcy.
For another: Battery prices have been coming down. A LOT (80% in the past 10 years). So by the time you're out of warranty - and if you happen to be one of those super unlucky dudes that gets a fault on day one after the warranty expires - then you can expect that in 8 years or so a battery pack will not be nearly as expensive as it would be today.
(Plus: a battery pack - even if it is degraded - is far from worthless. So you even in the event of an exchange you can expect some money on trading it in. It's not like a busted motor or transmission that is basically scrap.)
Idk I'd say it's probably just dealership prices plus you're dealing with luxury car dealership
You’re going to save about $15,000 using electricity vs gas in 200k miles, which pretty much covers the cost of a new battery pack. That’s not figuring in the cost of replacing the Prius battery or any of the other maintenance stuff on ICE vs EV.
Can't really determine this without knowing OP's location. There are many states with electricity 4-5x higher than where I live.
Yeah currently live in CA, but will be leaving in a year or two… so I’m keeping that in mind as I’ll have the car elsewhere. In California, if I owned my own house or at least had a garage, I’m convinced I could say tons of money and get a EV rate… however I live in an apartment and drive across the state a ridiculous amount… sooo, doing the math, I think I’m just on par with the gas price for fueling my Prius these days?? fast charging is typically between .40-.60kWh and home electricity prices go between .22-.62$ kWh, so I’m really not confident that I’d be saving the type of money that I would in many other parts of the country, like the southeast… Prius at 45mpg is pretty damn reasonable gotta say
That means you need to find a Tesla with free supercharging.
Yeah that’s really the game changer eh
Because Elon wants you to buy a new car instead of keeping an older one going.
You are describing one of the reasons I will keep my ICE vehicle for many more years. Between charging times and battery replacement costs they are just not ready for people that drive long distances.
I did a 4000 mile road trip in my Tesla last summer. Was I not supposed to do that?
But they saw a meme that said it takes 8 hours to charge and you could only drive for 20 mins. And what if they want to take that much-anticipated trip to the North Pole someday? 🙄
How long is "long". It's really more limited by the driver than the car. After 600 miles a day it becomes torture for me, not the car.
We did a 3700 mile road trip to San Diego last summer and a 1800 mile trip to Pensacola over Spring Break before that and frequent 500ish mile weekend trips to see family in our EVs.
Is that not allowed now or something? I must have missed the memo.
I question how you would feel if you drive a EV long distances daily for work. For holiday travel when you have all the time in the world to stop and charge it's probably OK but I wonder how many people would want to have to wait for a charge especially in some of these smaller vehicles with only a 150-200 mile range.
In the US, there are what like 2-3 models that have that short of driving range?
The vast majority of EVs have 250+ mile range and can get through even a long day of driving for a work day on a single charge. If you're doing long route driving doing like 500+ miles a day, you'll be stopping occasionally anyway, even in an ICE car, so doing it in an EV is not much different assuming the charging along the way is available. But in that case it is more of an infrastructure than a problem with the car itself.
Most new EVs are capable of fast charging in under 30 minutes. It’s really not a problem. If you do long distance you’ll eventually stop to eat or something.
Given the low number of electric vehicles on the road vs ice vehicles, we are not seeing any competition on the repair side of EVs. Eventually regular mechanic shops will be servicing EVs and the cost will come down compared to work at a dealership. We’ll sometime see specialty shops for replacing or repairing batteries, just like there are transmission shops right now. We are probably a decade or two away from this kind of business becoming the norm to bring costs down.
Automotive companies like Tesla are actively working against ‘right to repair’. I would hope in the long term these anti-competitive practices will be barred through legislation, but don’t hold your breath.
A lot of people speculate that many batteries will have a useful range that outlasts the rest of the car.
So there’s good news, bad news, and your own luck when buying a used EV or keeping one for years. I’d suggest if you don’t like uncertainty and chance, keep your car under warranty that covers the entire powertrain.
Prius and Leaf batteries experience more rapid degradation because they are air-cooled. Tesla batteries are liquid-cooled. If you plan for 20-30% degraded range vs. new then you’ll likely never need to replace the battery.
An EV battery is more than just battery cells put together (there are safety measures, pack heating/cooling, etc.), so you can't really compare it to an e-bike battery. It is like comparing a modern gas heater to a campfire.
Also let me remind you that on Tesla batteries there is an 8 year/120.000 mile waranty. So if the battery goes under a certain limit of capacity (I think 75% but not sure) you can get it replaced for free.
"Free" is really expensive!
If you’re one of those guys who’d replace just one AA/AAA battery on their 2-battery TV remote, you’d notice the new one would degrade faster. Sure it’s a cheap alternative for a TV remote you have with an easy removable cover, but that’s not the case in a EV’s battery pack. The labor required to unseal that massive battery pack alone costs a lot, with positive outcome of the work to be so low. Hence, it is pointless.
I will make a bet that the market will see the need and third party entrepreneurs will make replacing the battery a lot less expensive within 5 years.
Your Tesla should easily make 200K miles in 6 years. Buy enough range and plan well so you keep it at 20 - 80%.
I'd run the numbers on what you spent on the Prius for fuel, oil changes, etc and compare that to electrical costs. Depending on where you are, the tesla comes far ahead. Or, if you're in MA, the Prius likely wins lol.
I don't think battery packs are going to be forever expensive. But we are really at the front end of the tech taking over. The Prius battery pack was $7k when we got it in 2005. Today it's half that, and adjusted for inflation, that's an even better number. AND you can go third party new or even rebuilt.
As an aside, there's a 2019 M3 pack on sale near me for $5k. I just don't think there's enough people that know what to do with them.
If you buy a new car today by the time you need a replacement in 6-12 years the cost of batteries will have declined 50-75% so it wont really be a big deal unless you buy a used car that is out of warranty and it fails the day you buy it.
Yeah 100%, but that’s with my original question that a lot of people didn’t like, was referring to… I can only afford an EV that is out of warranty… therefore the replacement cost of batteries is directly weighing on my mind.